Recent issues

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Recent issues

Post by Guest_Phoenix94305 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:58 am

Hiya All,

I would like to discuss some recent events. As most of you probably noticed, I haven't been here for a couple weeks. In the time I have been gone, there has been a lot of nonsense that occurred. My inbox was quite filled with complaints, and, when I spoke with people on YCK, I got more new complaints.

So, first, I put Renske back as TP. This was, by far, the most common thing I was asked about. "Why is Renske a mentor?" Apparently, when making decisions for who should be a mentor, we don't talk about it, we just look at who is TP and then roll a dice for who should be mentor. Let's not ask people who play, let's not ask anyone in a position of authority. Fine. If that is how we do things, Renske is now back to TP in exactly the same way he was made a mentor. In the mod log, this is why Renske was made a mentor: "Mentor lacking in my timezone =/ He is helpful and consistant... Smile" By Dragon.

This is after infighting BS that took place in the mod log, between Dragon and Oreos. One question to ask is, do we need more mentors? I am not sure on that. If there is a deficiency in power, let's first do an obvious thing, and make GhostOfNinja a moderator. The only--and the ONLY--reason I haven't asked for this before is because I didn't see any need for another moderator. If there is anyone who objects to Ninja being made a moderator, I don't know who they are. It seems absolutely obvious to everyone who plays this game that Ninja, if anyone, should be made a mod.

Ninja is kind, very kind. But moreover, he truly cares about this game, and puts the time and effort into this game that, really, no one else does now in any comparable way.

So yeah. Done. Renske, demoted. To Renske, I want to say, I truly think you're a nice guy, and I have always enjoyed playing with you. However, you did not earn the position of mentor, and my demoting you was a response to that, in light of all I have heard. You might once again get it, but, truly, your getting it this time was premature, based on, really, what seems to me, one person's personal agenda. Really, you're a victim of that agenda, and I'm sorry for that. But must I do what I think is right, and it is done.

Okay, so this has been a long post, and does not deal with everything, but it, at least, is a start.

~Phoe

EDIT from dragon: The topic title is bugged, I fixed it.
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Re: Recent issues

Post by Guest_Phoenix94305 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:40 am

Okay, so second thing. Wopi coming back. I was in favor of this. I did set a condition before I would approve--that Wopi give a public apology. I thought that was fair, because Wopi did do wrong. I spoke privately with Wopi, and he seemed quite fine and reasonable. While I am doubtful that he liked me, or has any respect for me, I really don't think that's relevant. You don't need to like me, and you don't need to respect me. The only thing you need to do to me is respect my decisions, when they are moderator decisions, and otherwise treat me with basic human dignity.

By asking Wopi to do a public apology as a condition for him coming back, I thought that might do something to cleanse the residual hurt he caused by his prior actions. At the very least--he did wrong, and doing wrong is something that ought to be apologized for.

Wopi was let back on, without an apology being given. I don't object to this. Maybe, in fact, it is better this way. If he apologizes, it will be because he wants to. Nothing will compel him. Therefore, it will be more meaningful. It would an end in and of itself. If he had to apologize in order to come back, his sincerity may be questioned.

Whatever the case, judge it how you will, but do so with thought, and, moreover, do so with kindness (even if only a little bit).

~Phoe
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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:54 am

From my point of view you sound like a super-moderator, in the sense that you, and only you, make the decisions, specifically about renske's case.
I talked to the staff members I met in order to gather opinions, including you via a message on your profile, and was hoping for a discussion before a decision is made.
I think dragon shouldn't have made renske a mentor on his own, and I think you should have talked to at least 3 or 4 other mods/mentors to make sure you have their consent (you would have gotten mine btw).

On the other hand, I think dragon should have talked privately with some of us (mods/mentors) before letting wopi back in. You stated a condition, I did too. Your condition hasn't been fulfilled, and I don't know if mod/mentors agree with mine. That's a bit annoying, to say the least.

So, to sum it up : please let's stop not communicating, because we don't look like a team anymore. And timzeones are not an excuse, we don't need to hurry when it comes to that kind of issue.

EDIT : Meanwhile dragon gave ranske his mentor rank back, on his own of course.


Last edited by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Recent issues

Post by GhostOfNothing on Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:14 am

I like the Idea of Ninja being a mod. With renske, could mods come together and discuss the matter before phoe demotes him? He already has 2, he just needs 1 or 2 more according to xak. I think rens is a great mentor and deserves his spot.
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Re: Recent issues

Post by renske96 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:06 pm

Personally im speechless, i thought that these things were discussed and well thought but hey okay, i thought i could help the community with that, but i think im rather considered a nothing and not a nice person from the whole community that, the most, even dont met me, or just once and printed a stereotypic mindset and/or jealousity, and therefore i can accept it on the one hand and i can't on the other side. Sorry, but im really dissapointed, not of any of the specific persons, from all of you....

Whatever, im a nothing, and i think it would always be, don't count the things..... we can talk about it but i dont see a point to that...
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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:25 pm

Phoe, i understand you object this reason but that doesn't mean you can do everything by youtself either. You are basically, in your logic, doing what we havn't talked about either...

Anyways... @Phoe I would happy to read the so-called 'complains' before I will say anything.

@xak no one is online.... not even 1 single friken mod for like 1-2 weeks and at that particular timezone everything kinda havoc... that's why I am promoting him. I know he is not the perfect candidate (as everyone learn at first), but I think it is the best option that we can do.

@ren there is no mod online except me for 2 weeks, the situation is not that good at that times.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:36 pm

cleg has been online within that period you're mentionning, same timezone as renske, so what you're stating is wrong / irrelevant.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by AngelOfOreos on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:42 pm

Hi,

On the topic of mentors, I stand by my entry in the mod log. ->
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
@Dragon I see no reason for more mentors to be added. Those who are inactive should be removed, and only then should more be added to replace them, I should think. The rank means nothing (Even if I was not mentor, I would teach players) except for allowing for invitations. If the rank had purpose, I may think otherwise.
The only thing I think would be useful to have more of online would be moderators. Those are the people who can get things done and are able to do so easily. Mentors are just TP's with a special title and a bit more trust, imho.
That repeated, I feel my feelings closely match that of Phoenix and Xakaze regarding the topic of the mods and mentors.

Also, about wopi. I believe your decision was premature, Dragon. I do not feel enough people agreed wholeheartedly and as a group to allow for this. I agree with Xakaze.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I think dragon should have talked privately with some of us (mods/mentors) before letting wopi back in. You stated a condition, I did too. Your condition hasn't been fulfilled, and I don't know if mod/mentors agree with mine.

Now, what I'm seeing amongst you all is a lot of hypocrisy and pointed fingers without much getting done. This would all be much easier if yck were to put a word in and end it, but that isn't happening... so communicating before acting and agreeing on actions before carrying them out, rather than simply undoing others' actions, is something I feel the people making decisions need to more carefully keep in mind.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Hi,

On the topic of mentors, I stand by my entry in the mod log. ->
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
@Dragon I see no reason for more mentors to be added. Those who are inactive should be removed, and only then should more be added to replace them, I should think. The rank means nothing (Even if I was not mentor, I would teach players) except for allowing for invitations. If the rank had purpose, I may think otherwise.
The only thing I think would be useful to have more of online would be moderators. Those are the people who can get things done and are able to do so easily. Mentors are just TP's with a special title and a bit more trust, imho.
That repeated, I feel my feelings closely match that of Phoenix and Xakaze regarding the topic of the mods and mentors.

Also, about wopi. I believe your decision was premature, Dragon. I do not feel enough people agreed wholeheartedly and as a group to allow for this. I agree with Xakaze.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I think dragon should have talked privately with some of us (mods/mentors) before letting wopi back in. You stated a condition, I did too. Your condition hasn't been fulfilled, and I don't know if mod/mentors agree with mine.

Now, what I'm seeing amongst you all is a lot of hypocrisy and pointed fingers without much getting done. This would all be much easier if yck were to put a word in and end it, but that isn't happening... so communicating before acting and agreeing on actions before carrying them out, rather than simply undoing others' actions, is something I feel the people making decisions need to more carefully keep in mind.

Oh I didnt see that... and pain let him in NOT me.... And you guys arnt even here AND pain has my consent. Don'r forget you guys are just joking all day long in forum and arn't inputing anything useful. I just don't say this directly doesn't mean I don't know this!

Stop telling me we should follow this follow that rule.... That's how society works and that's why it fails.
I will be *trying* to quit the 3rd time of the game really soon... I really hope you guys dont call me back again cuz of another war in EP or shit happens! *some* Mods and *some* mentor are just too bossy these days, and they think they are superior and should like control everything. (for some of you who don't know I have been called twice to settle the EP wars and a lot of issue which mods or mentors unfairly treat players) I don't want to see politicians or rule maker or law enforcers here. We mod by connection and love, and *some* staff don't even give a shit about what majority are saying here and build connection with TP/someone.

And phoe, if you just come back and don't know anything. Don't make a friken decision... Please don't drive me mad (again) okay?

I don't feel like modding with you guys either tbh. The mod community usually listen to majority of the players... Now it is what mods and mentors telling and deciding fate of other players directly. Sorry guys, I have modded as long as YEP exists but I just don't feel like working with you guys anymore if this happens constantly. Modding are not enforcers or rule makers ,and should be done by heart. I don't care how much they trying to help ppl or into the game. If they have no heart (and soul), I will not promote them.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Stop telling me we should follow this follow that rule.... That's how society works and that's why it fails.
Surely let's switch to anarchy, that'd work much better...

\\dragon144 wrote:
I will be *trying* to quit the 3rd time of the game really soon... I really hope you guys dont call me back again cuz of another war in EP or shit happens! *some* Mods and *some* mentor are just too bossy these days, and they think they are superior and should like control everything. (for some of you who don't know I have been called twice to settle the EP wars and a lot of issue which mods or mentors unfairly treat players)
Imo those who think they're superior are those who make unilateral decisions, which is litterally what you did.

\"dragon144 wrote:
I don't want to see politicians or rule maker or law enforcers here. We mod by connection and love, and *some* staff don't even give a shit about what majority are saying here and build connection with TP/someone.
This looks like a direct charge against me and/or cleg. Do you have an example to prove your point ?

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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Stop telling me we should follow this follow that rule.... That's how society works and that's why it fails.
Surely let's switch to anarchy, that'd work much better...

\\\\dragon144 wrote:
I will be *trying* to quit the 3rd time of the game really soon... I really hope you guys dont call me back again cuz of another war in EP or shit happens! *some* Mods and *some* mentor are just too bossy these days, and they think they are superior and should like control everything. (for some of you who don't know I have been called twice to settle the EP wars and a lot of issue which mods or mentors unfairly treat players)
Imo those who think they're superior are those who make unilateral decisions, which is litterally what you did.

\"dragon144 wrote:
I don't want to see politicians or rule maker or law enforcers here. We mod by connection and love, and *some* staff don't even give a shit about what majority are saying here and build connection with TP/someone.
This looks like a direct charge against me and/or cleg. Do you have an example to prove your point ?

I think you know more then I do! And you see how we worked before (the mod team) vs. now. Just ask ppl who have been here for quite a long while. Yes you are always right and we are always wrong. I don't need to prove anything, the action you took already prove it in the community. How do TPs/someone think about us? Shouldn't we are heping them instead of letting them to listen to us?

Look I don't wanna argue and it is the first time I point this out. Regarding this very issue I don't mind demoting ren but at least give me something logical. Just saying he is not capable is not enough. In what way? You are not even here for quite a while and same as phoe so you guys are not accountable and I shouldn't ask you guys. I done what I have done, communicate in mod log and no one cares and now you demoting them just because of some dude receive complains and we don't even know if it makes sense yet (phoe, please give me the complains you receive that would be really helpful)

Lastly, please mod by HEART! Geez...

EDIT: xak is not fully controlling. Apologize to xak as I was really frustrated (IRL factors too...) I just don't know why I associate you 2 together! I shouldn't say anything till I claim down

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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:35 pm

What you're saying is called defamation you know.
From my point of view you're the cause of this shit. I got NUMEROUS complaints after you promoted renske to mentor. I chose to try to gather staff's opinions instead of making a quick decision. How is it 'trying to control everything' ?

EDIT : You edited your post after I wrote mine. @dragon : ok, no problem, hope your IRL issues are fixed soon man


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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:40 pm

Can you kindly foward the complains to me in private, they would be really helpful...

Once again, sorry for pointing you out I meant phoe only. I also have an edit note in my last comments about it.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:41 pm

yea saw that and edited my comment while you were writing your last one. how long this crossed discussion is gonna be ^^

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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:54 pm

now Very Happy hahaha

Just send me when u got time Smile I know you are busy sometimes!

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Re: Recent issues

Post by TheCamaro on Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Wopi did apologize guys.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by AngelOfOreos on Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:31 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Wopi did apologize guys.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

We're well aware.

However, that is not exactly the focus of this discussion.

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Re: Recent issues

Post by Guest_Phoenix94305 on Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:41 pm

@Dragon: Wait, so, you didn't enjoy me just coming back on after me being gone for a couple weeks and making a decision without even talking to you? Hm, perhaps we have a problem! Didn't you come back, after being gone for innumerable months, and then NOT talk to us about what was going on, and then proceed to make your own decisions? When things like this occur, NO ONE is happy. Case in point. I've made my example.

Going on...

I apparently wasn't clear in my first post--there weren't complaints about Renske acting in his capacity as a mentor. The complaints were about the decision-making process, so, that is, "Why was Renske made a mentor?" This is a good question. Did we need more mentors? Well, Dragon came back and decided on his own that we did. If he can do that, why shouldn't I come back and decide that we don't, all on my own, and then cancel his actions?

Look, this is utterly wrong in operation. This is not how we have done things, nor how we should do things. However, this problem has been cropping up more and more lately. Let us NOT have more of this ridiculous override system, where nobody talks to each other.

Also, really, GoN needs to be made a moderator. I don't play much because of repetitive motion injuries that need surgery to correct. GoN is around all of the time, and he cares more about this game than probably any of the current moderators.

~Phoe

P.S. I will give a personal apology to Renske. He is a valued person in this community, and I should not have lowered myself by making unilateral decisions that have personal consequences to prove a point.
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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:25 pm

"GoN is around all of the time, and he cares more about this game than probably any of the current moderators."

Are you fucking kidding me ?

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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:"GoN is around all of the time, and he cares more about this game than probably any of the current moderators."

Are you fucking kidding me ?

I think that is a sarcastic sentence (I hope).

@phoe Okay I know we have different opinions and that is a good thing. But in my defense, I've come here for quite some times already and whilst you are not here for quite a while and you abruptly demote him... So yeah =/ And since I havnt been here for quite some time before I noticed the drastic relationship between staff and normal EP folks here that's why I speak what I am thinking (and apologize if some facts are not entirely correct, especially xak's case).

Btw, I would love to see the private complains about ren. I am confident that the comments from these players will be useful in considering the problem we have to dealt with =) Idc whether our final decision is as long as it is beneficial to the community as a whole.


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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:59 am

Yesterday Phoe and I discussed several points raised in this thread, 3 specifically. I'll try to summarize here what we think (yes, we agreed) :

- Renske's case : We think that if we had to choose a mentor, renske wouldn't have been at the top of the list. However, as he was put in the middle of this, we think that we now should give him his chance. But we should have been consulted about it (we = mentors/mods), hence the huge amount of complaints, which is fair imo.

- Wopi's case : I saw his apologizes (Phoe too I think) only yesterday - thanks Camaro for pointing it out and share the link btw ^^ so Phoe's condition was fulfilled. Fine. However, same as above, we shoud have been consulted before that decision was made. Same as above again, we think that we should give him his chance nonetheless - I met him several times since then, and he's been very nice.

- GoN's case : It's a bit off-topic, but at least it'll be somewhere, Phoe thinks that there should be another moderator, specifically for the US timezone. At first I thought we didn't need more, but it's true that DonGato hasn't showed up in a long while, and now Phoe doesn't log in much anymore. So if everyone is ok, GoN will be moderator shortly - it couldn't be anyone but him anyway). Phoe will message yck when we have the agreement of enough ppl (mods/mentors/TPs).

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Re: Recent issues

Post by renske96 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:03 am

Well, to my case, as Phoe wrote me a thrilling private message that touched me, i would say that from my side its finished, and i apologize for all the "haters" and "jealous" people out there that think i dont deserve the rank, and from my point of view i was quite active and the things Phoe said to me that i am someone in this community touched me alot. Thanks for your trust in me, i won't dissapoint you all and make the best for being a loyal and trustful and the most important helping and caring mentor for you all. Thanks to all that helped me and suggested me too, the people i mentioned they know who they are, and again i will do the best.
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Re: Recent issues

Post by Xakaze on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:05 am

Jealousy or hatred has nothing to do with that. Your post might sound like arrogance renske. Be humble Wink

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Re: Recent issues

Post by renske96 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:20 pm

fine okay, i may sound arrogant sometimes, but who really knows me, knows what i want to say, as my mother tongue isnt english Razz
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Re: Recent issues

Post by dragon144 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:01 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Jealousy or hatred has nothing to do with that. Your post might sound like arrogance renske. Be humble Wink

That's what he has to work on ^^

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Re: Recent issues

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